[c350ia] [Fwd: battery length]

Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:11:08 -0400

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Mike,

Great points! I think the duty cycle may be higher than 50% as you =
stated. I
originally planned to upgrade the charging system (100+ Amps) after I
purchased my boat and at the last minute reflected that I may never get =
to
it =96 so I purchased the 75 Amp option from Catalina. As predicted, I =
never
did improve over that. I=92m not sure my boat is much more efficient =
than
yours. I help out the refrigerator by starting each trip with a block or =
two
of ice. When I purchased my boat I also opted for the 3rd water tank =
which
took up the space where Catalina usually places a separate engine start
battery. I assume that your extra batteries are under the port seat?

=20

I=92ve thought about buying a EU2000 for when my cruising increases. How =
is
yours connected?=20

Andy Sumberg #231

=20

=20

  _____ =20

From: KSE [mailto:kse@san.rr.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:40 PM
To: andy@sumberg.com; tjr3c@comcast.net; skip7@verizon.net;
c350ia@catalina350.net
Subject: Re: [c350ia] [Fwd: battery length]

=20

Andy,

=20

Apparently the insulation in the refrigerator got way better between our
hull #169 and your hull #231.  There is no where in our system that the
insulation is close to 3" our is closer to 1.5".  Here in Southern
California we experienced about a 90/10 run/off cycle when the boat was =
new.
After sealing up the gaps under the counter, adding additional =
insulation
under the counter and in the freezer compartment, and ducting the hot =
air
away from the compressor we got that down a little bit to more like =
75/25.
Of course that's with the freezer running at about 0F and the Fridge at
about 40F.  I guess if you didn't want to keep it as cold it wouldn't =
use as
much power.

=20

We ended up adding additional House Bank Ah's as well as a starting =
battery.
We now have 720Ah in the house bank and can go 2 days without charging =
and
draw down to 60%.  The boss likes to live in comfort, so the load =
includes
microwave, coffee pot, TV, computer, stereo and lights.  We can now live
like in a condo...I don't have to nag about turning things off... and
everyone is happier.

=20

With regards to charging with the engine, I assume that you have =
upgraded to
a higher output alternator with a smart charge controller.  Ours is =
stock,
and doesn't have much effective capacity...maybe about 35-40Amps =
effective
at 1500 RPM.  We use a Honda eu2000 which we run about 4hrs a day =
(starting
on day 3) when on the hook.  I'm jealous that your boat is so much more
efficient. If we spent more than our one two week extended trip per year =
on
the hook I would get very interested in the solar panel idea quickly.

=20

Mike Emery

#169

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Andy Sumberg <mailto:andy@sumberg.com> =20

To: tjr3c@comcast.net ; skip7@verizon.net ; c350ia@catalina350.net=20

Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:37 PM

Subject: RE: [c350ia] [Fwd: battery length]

=20

Folks,

I look at the battery time like this. I may be a little off on my
assumptions.

The owners manual for the refrigerator states =93=85 figure =
approximately 5 amps
when running. The average draw, as the ColdMachine cycles on and off, is =
1.8
to 2.4 amps for most 4 to 8 cubic ft iceboxes with average (3 inch plus)
rigid polyurethane foam insulation.=94=20

Figure each of our house batteries are 150Ah (I don=92t remember exactly =
what
they are). Generally you don=92t want to draw down a house battery below =
50%.
Therefore one battery could easily deliver 75Ah which would run the
refrigerator (cycling on and off at 50%) for=20

=20

75 Amp Hours/ 2.5 Amps =3D 30 hours

=20

Few items draw as much as the refrigerator (excluding AC which should =
not be
used away from shore power), but you would still have to adjust some,
particularly for lights. If you ran the house for 12 hours on one =
battery
and then ran it for another 12 hours on the other battery and then ran =
the
engine once every 24 hours for an hour or two, you should be ok.

=20

One of the first modifications I made to my boat was to put in a =
separate
dedicated engine start battery. This way, no matter how much I draw down =
the
house batteries, the engine can still be started. I never use the house
batteries individually, but always use them together. I wrote this up =
for
November 2005 Mainsheet. If any more recent owners are considering the =
same
modification, I=92d be happy to email the article to you. In the same =
article
I discussed a solar panel I installed to top off my batteries when the =
boat
is on my mooring, and the installation of a Xantrex Battery Monitor. I =
do
not have a slip and get to use shore power about once a year.

=20

Andy Sumberg

=93Portland=94 #231

=20

  _____ =20

From: c350ia-admin@catalina350.net [mailto:c350ia-admin@catalina350.net] =
On
Behalf Of tjr3c@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:31 PM
To: skip7@verizon.net; c350ia@catalina350.net
Subject: Re: [c350ia] [Fwd: battery length]

=20

Skip,

Its a good question and I really don't know the answer but we oftern =
anchor
out and we use the head, the refrigerator, anchor light, some reading
lights, radio, and even some instruments.  Never had a problem the next =
day.
I recommend you do what the charter fleets do.  The Moorings recommends =
that
you run the engine on their boats at least two hours a day to keep the
batteries up.  We never did but we did run the engine at 1600 RPMs for =
at
least 20-30 minutes everyday in the morning.  This got us through 7
days/nights without shore power.

Tim

#332

=20

-------------- Original message --------------=20
From: <skip7@verizon.net>=20

> >From: D Malecki=20
> >Date: 2008/06/05 Thu AM 11:40:33 CDT=20
> >To: skip7@verizon.net=20
> >Subject: battery length=20
>=20
> C350 Owners,=20
>=20
> I have responded to this e-mail already but I know there are many of =
you
that=20
> are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject.=20
> I know the Maleckis will appreciate any advice anyone can give=20
> dmalecki@prodigy.net=20
> Thanks.=20
>=20
> Skip Penizotto=20
> .=20
> >Hi Skip!=EF=BF=BDWe are taking our 1st long trip with our boat - hull =
#184.=EF=BF=BD
We may=20
> have to anchor out acouple of times.=EF=BF=BD My question - do you =
know how long
the=20
> bateries hold=EF=BF=BD their charge while running the fridg/freezer =
and
head=EF=BF=BDwithout=20
> totally dr! aining them?=EF=BF=BD That's without 110v AC! =EF=BF=BDWe =
do not have an
invertor=20
> or a generator.=EF=BF=BDWhen we purchased our boat the dealer said 4 =
hours -
that=20
> does'nt sound right! =EF=BF=BDPls. advise!=EF=BF=BDDot=EF=BF=BDAlso =
I've called and emailed=20
> Catalina with no luck of a return call.=EF=BF=BD Also tried the forum =
and it
never=20
> posted.=EF=BF=BD Thanks!!=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________=20
> c350ia mailing list=20
> c350ia@catalina350.net=20
> http://www.catalina350.net/mailman/listinfo/c350ia=20

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Mike,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

Great points! I think the duty =
cycle may
be higher than 50% as you stated. I originally planned to upgrade the =
charging
system (100+ Amps) after I purchased my boat and at the last minute =
reflected
that I may never get to it &#8211; so I purchased the 75 Amp option from
Catalina. As predicted, I never did improve over that. I&#8217;m not =
sure my
boat is much more efficient than yours. I help out the refrigerator by =
starting
each trip with a block or two of ice. When I purchased my boat I also =
opted for
the 3rd water tank which took up the space where Catalina =
usually
places a separate engine start battery. I assume that your extra =
batteries are
under the port seat?<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

I&#8217;ve thought about buying a =
EU2000
for when my cruising increases. How is yours connected? =
<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andy Sumberg =
#231<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> KSE
[mailto:kse@san.rr.com] <br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 05, =
2008 8:40
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">andy@sumberg.com</st1:PersonName>;
tjr3c@comcast.net; skip7@verizon.net; c350ia@catalina350.net<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [c350ia] =
[Fwd:
battery length]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Andy,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Apparently the insulation in the refrigerator got way =
better
between our hull #169 and your hull #231.&nbsp; There is no where in our =
system
that the insulation is close to 3&quot; our is closer to =
1.5&quot;.&nbsp; Here
in <st1:place w:st=3D"on">Southern California</st1:place> we experienced =
about a
90/10 run/off cycle when the boat was new.&nbsp; After sealing up the =
gaps
under the counter, adding additional insulation under the counter and in =
the
freezer compartment, and ducting the hot air away from the compressor we =
got
that down a little bit to more like 75/25.&nbsp; Of course that's with =
the
freezer running at about 0F and the Fridge at about 40F.&nbsp; I guess =
if you
didn't want to keep it as cold it wouldn't use as much =
power.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

We ended up adding additional House Bank Ah's as well =
as a
starting battery.&nbsp; We now have 720Ah in the house bank and can go 2 =
days
without charging and draw down to 60%.&nbsp; The boss likes to live in =
comfort,
so the load includes microwave, coffee pot, TV, computer, stereo and
lights.&nbsp; We can now live like in a condo...I don't have to nag =
about
turning things off... and everyone is =
happier.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

With regards to charging with the engine, I assume =
that you
have upgraded to a higher output alternator with a smart charge
controller.&nbsp; Ours is stock, and doesn't have much effective
capacity...maybe about 35-40Amps effective at 1500 RPM.&nbsp; We use a =
Honda
eu2000 which we run about 4hrs a day (starting on day 3) when on the =
hook.&nbsp;
I'm jealous that your boat is so much more efficient. If we spent more =
than our
one two week extended trip per year on the hook I would get very =
interested in
the solar panel idea quickly.<o:p></o:p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>Mike Emery</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>#169</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid black =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'=
>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div style=3D'font-color:black'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=3D2 =
face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span=
></font></b><font
size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:andy@sumberg.com" title=3D"andy@sumberg.com">Andy =
Sumberg</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href=3D"mailto:tjr3c@comcast.net" =
title=3D"tjr3c@comcast.net">tjr3c@comcast.net</a>
; <a href=3D"mailto:skip7@verizon.net" =
title=3D"skip7@verizon.net">skip7@verizon.net</a>
; <a href=3D"mailto:c350ia@catalina350.net" =
title=3D"c350ia@catalina350.net">c350ia@catalina350.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> =
Thursday, June 05,
2008 4:37 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> RE: =
[c350ia] [Fwd:
battery length]<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Folks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

I look at the battery time like =
this. I
may be a little off on my assumptions.<o:p></o:p>

The owners manual for the =
refrigerator
states &#8220;&#8230; figure approximately 5 amps when running. The =
average
draw, as the ColdMachine cycles on and off, is 1.8 to 2.4 amps for most =
4 to 8
cubic ft iceboxes with average (3 inch plus) rigid polyurethane foam
insulation.&#8221; <o:p></o:p>

Figure each of our house batteries =
are
150Ah (I don&#8217;t remember exactly what they are). Generally you =
don&#8217;t
want to draw down a house battery below 50%. Therefore one battery could =
easily
deliver 75Ah which would run the refrigerator (cycling on and off at =
50%) for <o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>75 Amp Hours/ 2.5 Amps =3D 30 =
hours<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

Few items draw as much as the =
refrigerator
(excluding AC which should not be used away from shore power), but you =
would
still have to adjust some, particularly for lights. If you ran the house =
for 12
hours on one battery and then ran it for another 12 hours on the other =
battery
and then ran the engine once every 24 hours for an hour or two, you =
should be
ok.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

One of the first modifications I =
made to
my boat was to put in a separate dedicated engine start battery. This =
way, no
matter how much I draw down the house batteries, the engine can still be
started. I never use the house batteries individually, but always use =
them
together. I wrote this up for November 2005 Mainsheet. If any more =
recent owners
are considering the same modification, I&#8217;d be happy to email the =
article
to you. In the same article I discussed a solar panel I installed to top =
off my
batteries when the boat is on my mooring, and the installation of a =
Xantrex
Battery Monitor. I do not have a slip and get to use shore power about =
once a
year.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Andy =
Sumberg<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&#8220;<st1:place =
w:st=3D"on"><st1:City
 w:st=3D"on">Portland</st1:City></st1:place>&#8221; =
#231<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font =
size=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabIndex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
c350ia-admin@catalina350.net [mailto:c350ia-admin@catalina350.net] =
<b><span
style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>tjr3c@comcast.net<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, June 05, =
2008 3:31
PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> skip7@verizon.net;
c350ia@catalina350.net<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [c350ia] =
[Fwd:
battery length]</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Skip,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Its a good question and&nbsp;I really don't know the answer but =
we
oftern anchor out and we use the head, the refrigerator, anchor light, =
some
reading lights, radio, and even some instruments.&nbsp; Never had a =
problem the
next day.&nbsp; I recommend you do what the charter fleets do.&nbsp; The
Moorings recommends that you run the engine on their boats at least two =
hours a
day to keep the batteries up.&nbsp; We never did but we did run the =
engine at
1600 RPMs for at least 20-30 minutes everyday in the morning.&nbsp; This =
got us
through 7 days/nights without shore power.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>Tim<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>#332<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'>-------------- Original message -------------- <br>
From: &lt;skip7@verizon.net&gt; <br>
<br>
&gt; &gt;From: D Malecki <br>
<DMALECKI@PRODIGY.NET>&gt; &gt;Date: 2008/06/05 Thu AM 11:40:33 CDT <br>
&gt; &gt;To: skip7@verizon.net <br>
&gt; &gt;Subject: battery length <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; C350 Owners, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I have responded to this e-mail already but I know there are many =
of you
that <br>
&gt; are far more knowledgeable than me on this subject. <br>
&gt; I know the Maleckis will appreciate any advice anyone can give <br>
&gt; dmalecki@prodigy.net <br>
&gt; Thanks. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Skip Penizotto <br>
&gt; . <br>
&gt; &gt;Hi Skip!=EF=BF=BDWe are taking our 1st long trip with our boat =
- hull
#184.=EF=BF=BD We may <br>
&gt; have to anchor out acouple of times.=EF=BF=BD My question - do you =
know how long
the <br>
&gt; bateries hold=EF=BF=BD their charge while running the fridg/freezer =
and
head=EF=BF=BDwithout <br>
&gt; totally dr! aining them?=EF=BF=BD That's without 110v AC! =
=EF=BF=BDWe do not have an
invertor <br>
&gt; or a generator.=EF=BF=BDWhen we purchased our boat the dealer said =
4 hours -
that <br>
&gt; does'nt sound right! =EF=BF=BDPls. advise!=EF=BF=BDDot=EF=BF=BDAlso =
I've called and emailed <br>
&gt; Catalina with no luck of a return call.=EF=BF=BD Also tried the =
forum and it
never <br>
&gt; posted.=EF=BF=BD Thanks!! <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________ <br>
&gt; c350ia mailing list <br>
&gt; c350ia@catalina350.net <br>
&gt; http://www.catalina350.net/mailman/listinfo/c350ia =
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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